In this weekly roundup, there’s Sephe’s caption video, links to Chesney’s video on Sephe’s chosen song, and one of the roughest transcripts you’ll ever read. 🤪

And if you missed Sephe’s podcast episode click here.

Sephe’s Quote: ‘Be kind whenever possible’

Sephe’s Song: Perhaps Love

Caption Video:

Chesney Hawkes covering John Denver.

Are skeptical? You must be a new listener. Welcome!

Watch him put it together on TikTok.

A Very Rough Transcript:

Neil: Hello everybody. And welcome to this week's episode of Ferguson, Harrington Hawkes. I'm Ferguson. I'm Harrington and I'm Hawkes. Oh,

Lynn: we've got the sexy voice from Chesney this week.

Chesney: I wasn't trying then naturally sexy.

Neil: We're still warming up. He wasn't

warm up. Let show you how guys,

Chesney: if I was trying. Alright. Right.

Okay. And

I'm Hawkes

Neil: bit more projection. Please love.

Lynn: I think that sounds a bit creepy.

Chesney: Yeah. Krissy would say the same thing. Yeah. Just don't do that. yeah.

so you stick to your, the other way then all let's stick to that. do, you know,

it's nice that I'm feeling like I'm liking this new setup. Right. I'm liking this thing and you must be liking it to Neil because it takes you out from your cupboard under the stairs.

Neil: Yeah. At least it gives me something to do, cuz just there's not enough to do in life, you know?

So yeah. I like

Chesney: it. Cuz it's structured. And, you know,

Lynn: I like, oh, you like a structure? I mean is because we've got Neil 3.0, was it 2.0 can

Neil: 3.0. It's going ups going

Lynn: 0.0 . And now we've also got Chesney 3.0, because you've got your structure going on. Like gimme a structure, gimme a brainy thing.

Neil: I think it's quite funny that the two dyslexic ones like structure that's

Chesney: well, maybe that's why we like structure.

Neil: That's an interesting one.

Chesney: I it's chaotic mess. Yeah. it's like,

I dunno. It's like, uh, something that we aim for, but don't very often get that. The

Lynn: thing that's funny as well with the two of you is out of the three of us. I'm the only one who's not dyslexic, but I'm also the one who's least likely to send a text or email. The two of you really like your messaging. Oh, you like your messaging

Chesney: and yeah, I apologize.

I I've been bugging you guys like crazy. So I, you know,

Neil: no, I told him only not to apologize. It's. It's all proactive and it's great. It's great. It's been great. Getting shit done. Manche you're going on? The getting shit done list kind of guy. Yeah,

Chesney: that's it. I wanna be that guy really annoying.

Lynn: It's it must be really hellish actually. Cuz you're known for your adorability and Neil you're known for like your proficiency in order and stuff like that must be like really. Difficult or annoying to be known as the annoying guy. I mean, imagine waking up in the morning and going, okay, I'm Timmy Mallet and I'm known for being, what am I known for being

Neil: right.

Chesney: Tim's lovely. Do you know Timmy? Mallett yeah. I've I've I've known Tim. And is he annoying

now? He's very nice. He's actually very nice. He's a nice man. he get? It's his it's that kind of, um, you know, puts on the Timmy Mallet hat and becomes that character, you know, he's actually, of course he's a character.

Yeah. He's, he's not as, as flamboyant as, uh, you know, in real life, as you would imagine him.

Lynn: I think it's not him so much that I think is annoying, but that didn't you have a big hammer, or something like, oh no, he mallet

Neil: did mallet mallet rather mallet Tim Mallet,

Lynn: mallet, Timmy Mallet had a hammer that is like where my head is at, at the moment.

Right. Didn't he have a comedy hammer, you know, I think that that's quite an interesting thing for, uh, this episode in a way, which is that people aren't always what they appear to be. Mm. Do you know what I mean? They do that like, um, the idea, cause I literally, I trust you because you know, we, we are very similar in who we like and all that.

If you say Timmy Mallet is a nice guy. I'll go, oh, he probably is a nice guy, but I have to say from appearances, I would've gone. Yeah. He's not really my flavor.

Yeah. Yeah. He may not be, he may not be.

Chesney: I dunno, I dunno.

But it is true. We all have that kind of, uh, you know, especially people in the public eye, you know, people have preconceptions about people don't they?

So they do. Nobody ever really knows a famous person. She's why I don't like to judge anyone till I've actually met. You know?

Lynn: Yeah. It's hard though. If somebody's wondering about with a big comedy hammer, right. With a big comedy hammer, they have

Chesney: yeah. With a itsy bitsy, teenie weenie, yellow polka dot bikini.

Yeah.

Lynn: yeah. It's it not a song for someone with dyslexia of that? Is it

Neil: right? I'm gonna steer this team. Cause I'm looking at the clock. I am going to steer us to our quote of the evening from our guest of the day. And it is a quote by the Dalai Lama and it is "be kind whenever possible. It is always possible."

Amen. Oh, so that tells us quite a lot about our guest, I guess. Doesn't it? Just that alone. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, it is always possible to be kind. It just sort of bit left field here. Is it always appropriate? And I suppose I throw up in the air for discussion that, um, do you think maybe in life we need to breed and encourage a bit more stoicism in others and constant kindness is overdone or OTT.

Lynn: Do you know why? I think it's good to be kind. Here's a thing, right? I'm not,

Neil: I'm not saying it's not, I'm not saying it's not good.

Lynn: No, but I, well, I think that it's, uh, at the moment being kind is a, is an act of rebellion. I sort of thing, because we are being encouraged to be, uh, angry or frightened or like, if you're kind, it kind of puts you in a place where you go, you're like, yeah, yeah.

I can see you're an asshole, but I'm good with it. Right. That sort of kindness. Right? Yeah. But the other night I was out for a walk with Mark and somebody had done something. People are a little crazy. Just now when you're dealing with them business wise, mm-hmm and somebody had done something, they really annoyed me.

Like they really annoyed me and their behavior was out of order. Right. Was an out of order thing that they did. And I, when I was walking with Mark the other night where like we walk the dog late at night and, uh, and I said, you know, the thing is, is I really want to let go of the resentment on it. Mm.

Like, I really wanna cuz the person who did the bad thing did the bad thing and it's done. And if I can be kind about it, if I can like be in acceptance of it, then the instant really is done. Whereas if I have resentment about what they've done and I'm like, then you fester over it. Yeah. Yeah. Then the incident gets to continue and it actually becomes part of my story.

So I, I don't always think like being kind turns me into Julie Andrews in the Sound Of Music, but I do sometimes I choose to be kind because I'm like. I'm not gonna pick up other people's shit here. That's theirs.

Chesney: Yeah. Kindness can be like mistaken for weakness though. Can't it?

Neil: You know, totally. I thought you mentioned that actually, because the translation of what Dalai Lama was really meaning as well with that is, is be, is always be kind and humble.

That's the bit that's missing. Mm-hmm um, and of course being kind doesn't mean tolerating injustice, um, not every situation warrants your anger. So what you've gotta remember is save your anger for the truly deserving times. And I suppose that that could also be translated as calm the f!@#! down and stop being a prick.

Right. Basically, but

Lynn: also humble doesn't mean like wondering about going, oh my God. Humble is I think humility is a bit going well, you know, I'm just really one kinda living creature. On a big planet full of other living creatures. Uh, a whole, the most of them don't even have two legs. They've got four or six or whatever, or no legs at all.

Yeah. And actually humility is about being able to right size yourself. You go, I don't, well, you know, technically I have to deliver this thing next week, but I don't really have to make the, uh, sun rise or set . Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm I don't control the tides. I really just have to deal with this one thing.

Chesney: yeah. You know, I kind of like the, the end of that quote, which is that they're all because it is always possible, which is always possible. Yeah. There's always a way to be kind, even when you're angry and you, you know, you have to do a response to someone. Yeah. You know, I, I think we all have that ability to just jump on something that's happened to you and, and just kind of like blurt and, and it never helps does it.

It never helps. And Krissy's really good at this. She'll just say, look, just sleep on it.. Don't even respond right now because you, your, your response from when you first, first kind of get something that's bugging you is gonna be different from the response that you give, you know, 24 hours later, or even even a couple of hours later.

Yeah. Uh, because you think differently things calm down, the red mist goes and you realize that, you know, by responding in, in, in a similar way is not gonna get you, uh, anywhere really. Mm. So look for, look for the kindness and, uh, and that's that also will help you, um, help that, that thing con um, calm down and, and it won't be come with you and be your story anymore.

Lynn: Yeah. Yeah. Cuz the only thing I hate more than somebody who's been a douche bag is when I've been a douche bag bag. Oh, it's the worst. I, I really like that. I hate that. So like in my head I do the thing of, am I angry? Yes. Am I so angry that I'm going through the contents of my underwear drawer at them?

Maybe not. Yeah. Maybe I'll just sit down for a little bit,

Neil: but it's, it's really empowering. Isn't it to work through the anger and just, it it's, it's something that takes time to learn and you, and yeah, it's, it's a really interesting place to go mentally. Sometimes I find, I find cuz you just, it's a test.

It's a big test, isn't it. You have to go, okay,

she's gonna work through it.

Lynn: But sometimes the things that make you angry are from long, long time ago, like from things that happened when you're a kid or like that you can do nothing about. Right. Mm-hmm um, and then I guess the kindness is about being kind to yourself like rec having patience with yourself, being able to, uh, give space to what your own feeling is because you know, there are some things that are make.

You know, I can think of stuff that makes me angry that, uh, if I think about it that I can do nothing about cause it happened when I was much younger. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's also, sometimes I think it's a little fight or flight. I mean, anger is really just fear with a scary hat on most of the time, you know, it's like that happened to me.

I'm really afraid. They either A don't notice me B I'm not relevant C I'm forgotten about D I'm in danger. Right. It's usually that it's related to fear and it's just a slightly different slant. Yeah.

Neil: I have been reading a book. Well, he is

Chesney: definitely a brainy boy.

Lynn: Yeah. That's says Neil points really like a whole one or

Neil: I've I'm 30 chapters in. Okay. I'm a chapter. Yeah. Yeah.

Chesney: So how did you do that as a dyslexic?

Neil: Let's we'll make that another show. Okay. Let's keep, let's keep this.

Chesney: I don't believe you, Neil. I don't believe you're

Neil: production about the guest. Okay. So I've been reading this book and this book is called My Horizontal Life An Escort's Tale.

So here's a question for you guys and listeners. Listener. Here's a question if you listener, listen, listener. Yeah. Yeah. What kind of journey would someone experience to take from study in Shakespeare at the prestigious Julliard school of drama in New York to then becoming one of America's top courtesans?

So our next guest can tell us exactly what that journey is. Please welcome actress writer, comedian, candid, funny, and all round lovely human being. It's Sephe Haven on our podcast. Yay.

Sephe: Thank you.

Lynn: Thank you. I love hello?

Sephe: Yes. I wanna read that book. What, what, how does happen to her?

Lynn: but that's just your, okay, but this is your second book.

Isn't this your second book though?

Sephe: Well, no, the fir that was the first book that Neil just said. The second one yeah. Is called A Sunday Courtesan, and it's like a prequel.

Chesney: Oh, I see. Okay. I need to get onto that one. Oh, ,

Lynn: you're gonna have to really watch innuendo here in this. Right. Cause it's so tempting. And actually I'd love to say that Sephe would be like, oh no, no innuendo, but she likes about innuendo as well.

I'm right. I'm gonna

Sephe: say, yeah, I was just about to say, but then I, I can't say that it's their show he's gonna get on.

Chesney: You can say whatever you like on,

Neil: I just have the role. It's usually me that lowers the tone. All right. So can I just set that? it's usually my role listener.

Lynn: Turn away, this is a private thing between me and Sephe you guys stop listening. Use dyslexia....

Chesney: Keep your fingers in your ear, right? Okay. Right.

Lynn: No. Normally at this point, Neil is quite. Well, you know, um, shall I say serious, right? Neil is, can be quitey solemn and broody and meaningful, right? Yeah. I don't think I've ever seen him. So perky he's quite

Neil: perish. You know what it is? Tell you. It's the unbound confidence. I'm 30 chapters in,

Chesney: is it your first book? Neil

Neil: page one. Hang on a minute. It is page 357 of 494 it's achievement. Alright. Yeah. That's the new one. Yeah. That's why I'm

Chesney: so of myself. So I've read the first one and Neil's read the second one, the second one.

So between. We,

Neil: we knew you, it gonna be a long night, Sephe. Yeah. . Yeah, but

Lynn: possibly our, uh, listener or listener singular may not know you. So I want to ask the question really, uh, that we set in or Neil said in his introduction, how does someone go from studying Shakespeare Juilliard to becoming, um, one of America's, uh, most.

Sought after courtesans?

Sephe: You have to be really dependable. That's like

Neil: good diary skills, right?

Sephe: Yeah. Well, in the, in the book I got really broke because we have a student loans here. I don't know yeah. How they are in, uh, in europe, but

Chesney: oh, they're we have them too.

Sephe: Yeah. But do you have to pay them back? Yeah. Oh, okay. So then, you know,

Lynn: yeah. And so, yeah, but they're different. They are different in the UK just to perspective, as it, for our listener, a college here would cost maybe $40,000 a year can cost up to $40,000 a year for just a year of education.

Right. Right. So you're looking and also colleges over here are four years. So you're looking at 160 grand of debt before you've even entered into the workplace.

Sephe: Yeah. I mean, for me, it was nine years of school. By the time I finished Julliard and, you know, I didn't think about it. I was like, I'm there doing art?

You know, yeah. what course money, what, and then you finish and the second you finish, the student loans come in and you have to that's it then. Uh, and I was just about to be homeless and I didn't know what to do. So I saw this ad and it said, girls, girls, girls earn a thousand dollars a week. Escorts wanted no sex involved.

And I thought, yeah, okay. I, I escort men places anyway for free, you know, so, and so I thought, well, I'll, I'll try that. But then it turned out there was sex involved, you know, but then I thought, well, I've done that too, just for free. So this might be better. I don't know. yeah.

Lynn: Cause I remember when we met or one of the many times that we met.

and talked about stuff. Was it now I might have been imagining this, but was it a place where you were on living on the roof in New York, beside the pigeons?

Did that make that up?

Sephe: No, I didn't make it up, but that was, that was before Juilliard. So before I got to Julliard before I got there, I went to New York a little too quickly and I thought, well, I'll just get a waitress job.

And that wasn't so fast because I guess you need New York experience. so I ended up in the Y M C A, I ran out of money and this medical student who was staying in the Y M C A said, you just go to the roof and be on the roof and then you can have some place to be safe. So I stayed up there and I didn't know where I was gonna go from there.

And then this, I got really lucky because this guy came on the roof like the second night and he rolled one of those, uh, drum cigarettes. You know, the drum tobacco. And, and then he was, got really like, oh, somebody's up here? And I was up there and we met and then we fell in love on the roof. And I went to Amsterdam with him and I thought, well, I'm not going to Juilliard, that's it.

I'm going to be in love and speak Dutch and eat Pannenkoeken and, and stuff. , you know,

Neil: how did that work out? It didn't,

Sephe: it did not work out.

Lynn: also, I, I think one of the fascinating things that you've taught me is I remember when we like, cuz we, we meant to talk about writing and stuff like that. Right. Well, as you know, I'm saying it for a listener who may not know and, um, or listener singular. Um, but the, one of the things that you really opened my eyes about escorting was that, um, the concept that we have in the world, the only beautiful people deserve to be touched.

and the only beautiful people deserve to have sex and only beautiful people deserve to have relationships. And that if you don't have a relationship or you're, you know, you, you can't have sex or whatever, you have to just kind of like deal with it and recognize you're not one of the beautiful people.

And that, that was something that you absolutely objected. And I, and I'd never really thought about it that way, cuz I've always kind of in my mind, I guess I have a sort of Starsky and Hutch idea of what an escort is. Right. Which is that the escort's kicking and screaming and going no, no, no. And then it's a big Russian guy going, oh and all that.

I'm revealing too much of myself.

Chesney: I'm sure there's some of that.

Lynn: I'm sure that is

Sephe: No, I got very lucky. I um, when I answered that, ed, I didn't know I was getting lucky, but I answered the ed and I, it went to an agency because at that time, a long time ago and the dinosaurs room, the earth, there was telephone books.

And that's how we, we did things through telephone books. And so , she had a big ad in the yellow pages and the reason that girls couldn't be independent, I didn't know any of this at the time, but was those ads cost $5,000 a month, which at that time, when the dinosaurs roamed was a lot of money um, so there was agency.

So I ended up at a very good agency with a really. Um, strict, but really, uh, organized and dependable woman who cared about the girls and cared about the clients. She called them, sir. And you, you know, you were a lady, you dressed, well, you dressed in designer or you didn't work. , you know, you got your nails done in your hair done.

And, you know, she took me from this little Julliard ragamuffin person and like, did things,

Chesney: Are you still in contact with her? I just wondered, cuz I know in, in, in the book, I, I definitely got the impression that you, you, um, that you really liked her. I did that. It was, yeah, that it was a relationship that, I mean, I know she was hard and tough and everything, but uh, but it really, I could kind of feel the love through the words, um, that you had for her, which is why I asked that question if you'd stay.

Sephe: Yeah, I did for quite a while. I worked for her for even after I became independent, but then, um, she actually got busted and um, But they couldn't press any charges against her because she paid all her taxes. And that's really the only last thing. And nobody would, clients would not testify against her.

Girls would not testify against her. So they really couldn't nail her for anything. They tried tax taxes. And after that, you know, she was a multi multimillionaire at that point. So she was like, I'm outta here. Um, and then we never saw her again. But when I wrote the book, a lot of the girls, not a lot, some of the girls that I knew from the time got back in touch with me and said, oh my God, you nailed Susan.

It's so perfect. You know, I liked her because she took good care. I mean, she was strict, but she took good care of us and she taught me how to be a perfectionist. And she taught me what was important about the job, which had nothing to do with not, I shouldn't say nothing but very little to do with beauty Lynn.

Like we were talking. It was more to do with seriously dependability and, um, seeing other people, seeing men, um, a lot of times men and women don't get seen, you know, and when I was working with you and you made me feel seen and important and heard, I like, no, but my story, like I, but a lot of people don't make you feel that way, you know?

Um, you could come in and have a transaction with somebody and do the same thing, but it doesn't mean as much. So, uh, I think she taught me that it was important to have people mean something to you. Um, and then when that happened, um, I think I just started climbing that ladder. Of success as the number one hooker in America, such a proud moment.

proud

Chesney: but I guess, you know, you said it yourself, you were lucky that was the agency you ended up with, uh, to start with, cuz I guess you, you hear stories and you see films about these things and, and more often than not the people in charge the, the madams, the pimps or whatever, or are portrayed and you know, as these horrible people, um, and, uh, and I'm sure that happens.

I'm sure there is a lot of that. I'm sure you experienced some of that, but, um, you know, you were lucky to fall, fall in with, with Susan.

Sephe: I was, I think, you know, you're right. I think part of the reason I wanted to write the book was cuz of what you just said, which was, I think there's so many stereotypes that I had even I thought, oh my God, I'm gonna get into this business.

And I'm gonna be beaten by a pimp and end up in a gutter with a needle and my arm. And I don't know, I was terrified, you know, cuz you'd see it all on TV. And then after I lived, uh, two decades of it, I realized almost none of it is true in my world. And, um, a lot of that is written by men who don't really have the female experience of it.

And also like in any business, you know, you could be in appliances and that could mean you're the CEO that could mean you build refrigerators. That could mean you deliver them. So the sex industry has so many different components. So what you're seeing probably is just the obvious, you know, pimp on the corner kind of yeah.

Thing which has, or the Starsky and Hutch, Starsky. Yeah. Starsky and Hutch. It starts.

Lynn: And in the structuring of the podcast, it would be good if we asked a guest to have a quotation or something that they felt that they lived by and, uh, we asked you and your quotation

Sephe: was "Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible." Yeah. And that's the Dalai Lama.,

Lynn: how, how has that helped you? Because I, the think even in the time that I've known you, that people are not always kind to you when they know what you do,

Sephe: they're not always kind anyway, right?

Lynn: No, they're not but also there is a thing you, one of the things that when I said to the boys I'd really like, um, Sephe to come on is I said, ill I'll ask her because she'll ask me whether you guys would be all right with her being on the podcast. Mm-hmm because you are always mindful of what other people, uh, may feel meeting you.

It's one of the very interesting things that I think about you it's very uniquely. You actually is that you, um, You always take a moment to check that other people might be disturbed by you when you're really just not a very disturbing person at all. Quite adorable.

Sephe: Glad you say that. Cuz nobody can see me.

Lynn: The one listener cannot see there's only one. Listener's one listener! We can take a photograph and send it on their phone forward. um, how has kindness helped you? How has being kind or that quote helped you?

Sephe: Well, that's a great question. I think it, um, goes to the heart of, um, well I think when I'm, when I was writing myself as a character, it makes you explore yourself deeper, you know, and find out what drives you and so forth. And I found that, um, I was a very fearful, fearful person and, um, and kindness. I was fearful of meanness, mostly of, of other people's meanness. I was so scared of it. And so the only way to combat it really was to be kind right. Um, cuz otherwise you're just fighting your, it doesn't work.

And I thought, I thought too, when I would go into work with men, I'm a little girl all by myself, going into a room with a man alone or he's coming to me and there has to be a sense of faith and trust, but also no matter what was going on, if I immediately saw the God in him, I don't mean it to sound religious, but you know that soul and the kindness in him and, and then came in with kindness.

Um, that saved all the situations. And I don't think too, if I didn't ever wanna become hard. So if you were reading the first book, it was a book it's, it's a book about a lot of non-consensual situations and you could get angry, you could get hard. Um, but if you do, then you lose yourself, right? Um, yeah. So I, I sort of felt like, um, in every situation it started to become the answer.

Like what would I do? Well, what if I took the time to be empathetic and be kind it, you don't have to forgive, you know, But there, there is a sense of, um, coming at things with kindness and it changes everything. It makes keeps you happy. Right?

Chesney: were you unique amongst the girls that you worked with in, in that, uh, perspective?

Sephe: Well, I think there were many girls that it was a business too, just like in every thing, it's always a business at whatever business you're in, but I think, um, there were other girls that came at it through love and they wanted it to be special. Every person they saw, they wanted them to have a special experience.

And those girls I'm still friends with today. And so there's other girls that have dropped by the wayside. Didn't stay long enough cuz for them it wasn't a happy business.

Lynn: Yeah. I imagine that has to be quite tricky because, um, , it's not really a business where you can I just phone it? Well, maybe you can phone it in.

I don't know, but like some girls do

Sephe: yeah, no, I'm sure. But when you said phone it in, I was thinking, yeah, there was a, a time I was on a call with a girl when I was very new and didn't know, and I was kind of watching other girls to learn what to do. And sometimes you would be sent on a call with another girl.

And, um, so it would be two girls, one guy, and, um, I didn't know what to do. And they would always, always with this particular girl, when the guy was with his eyes closed, she would roll her eyes. Like what a full hair is, you know? And then one time she picked up the TV clicker. She was so she was going. Can I say that going down?

Yeah. You can say whatever you want. Yeah. You should gone down on him and, um, and in the middle of it, and I'm getting the balls and she's got the long part, you know, so we got her two time in it and, um, and we're Bo and he's got the TV on, which I wasn't even paying attention to, but it was on Nick at night.

And I guess she didn't like that particular show gun smoke or something. I don't like gun smoke either, but I didn't need to change the channel. And she changed the channel in the middle of like this blow job. And that's the only time he became sort of conscious. He's like, what's going, oh, she's like my knee hit it.

My knee hit. How is she paying attention to the TV and not involved in this penis right here. It's doing stuff, you know?

Chesney: Oh, gosh, that's. But I'm sure that probably happens in with couples in everyday life. You know, that kind of thing, you know, just reading a book behind yourself there. , I'm sure that happens all the time.

Sephe: I guess so, but not while you're being paid.

Chesney: No, no, perhaps not. No,

Lynn: that's right. The thing I'd say as well is like, cuz I know you as being a great writer, like the, you know, our relationship is like, I love your writing.

I think you're very talented. Sure. Me too. And you know how to place together a story, um, honestly, with Juilliard you go, well, you know, all of this is a bit of acting, so technically the years of Juilliard must have helped so much. Yes. Right? Absolutely. Yeah. But also the level of making story, you know, like how much is creating, do you create a narrative when you go into the room or um, like have you used kind of your writing skills in a way to get you through situations?

Where you just like, make it into something else?

Sephe: Well, there's two different answers to that. On one hand, mostly when I would go in, I would go in like, you go into an improv, which is to be totally open and ready to say yes to whatever, whoever, whatever. Yeah. You know, no matter the personality or the look or whatever, there's, you know, you just stay open and go with it.

And the other person, the guy usually is, um, the other actor. So he's bringing in whatever. So that's more improv, I think. And then depending on what's going on, I used to be able to weave this sort of, uh, I had a, sort of a, a two hour stage play set. Men didn't know it because it was seamless and, you know, but I knew it so that they would have to book two hours and they would come to me and I had my apartment set up, like Shaara O's tent or something and, you know, with a hundred candles, which took me forever to like relight, unlight, you know, and everything was perfect, dark velvet curtains, and usher them in.

And the music at that time back again, when the dinosaurs realms were the CDs. And so there was a three disc CD player and I, that was for each period of time. So that would run the entirety. a little before and a little after of the session, which like a show. So I knew about the music cues and never having to look at my watch.

Like what time is it, um, where we were in the dance kind of thing. So there was a certain amount of time allotted for talking and sitting next to each other and flirting and having some champagne and getting him sort of in a place of, we're not gonna jump in bed. We're not finishing in five minutes.

Like I'm gonna take you on a journey. Uh, and so, and men don't usually they think, oh, I'm gonna, so you no score, I'm gonna do this. And I'm gonna, I'm like no you're not.. And now it's my apartment, my game and my vagina. So, so we do it my way. And, um, and usually it was better that way, because at a certain point I could tell that he was getting like, is anything gonna happen here?

Am I just gonna spend two hours on our sofa? So then there'd be a little kissing, a little bit of touching on the little tent that was growing, you know, um, and then there was a moment where I'd say, shall we go into the bedroom? Then he would say, yes. And then this is all. You know, pretty scripted, but not anymore.

Um, and so he would stand up and I would say, well, you go take everything off, but leave on your pants. I want to do that. And then I would go to the bathroom and reset my mind. Like I would reset it into either Marilyn Monroe or Audrey Hepburn or that sense of, um, you know, or what's her name, Melina McCrory.

And, um, just, you know, get into that mindset of courtesan-ness, if I was out of it and put myself back into seductres or whatever, get back in the, yes. In the zone, like an athlete. Um, a lot of K Y just in case because, you know, I don't have time to juice it up myself. Um, and then, and then go back and then the music's at a certain place.

And I would tell him to stand there and close his eyes, and then I would just sort of touch him and take him on a journey until there was a lot of goosebumps. And then I sort of knew, like he was a camera almost. I knew exactly when he was looking at me as a closeup, like he was now on my eyes. And so I knew what to do with that acting wise and, and so forth until we got to the bed part.

And then there was a kind of thing that happened there. Um, and then at the end there was like a towel that I had, like this towel warmer. So then there would be that. And so I wanted it to be like this full whole experience as if you went to the theater mm-hmm . And so in my mind, that was sort of when I looked even the vocal stuff, I knew how to use vocals, to stretch things out and to make them mm sexier or you know, where to put your voice to, to take him.

So it doesn't, so he's never out of the moment thinking this is contrived or anything. So I guess in that way, Julliard helped us so much. yeah. Sounds

Chesney: like a three act, uh, stage play in a way, you know, your three CDs and you know exactly where you are during those particular, uh, songs. What were the songs you have to give me some of the songs

Sephe: well, at that time, especially it was, it was Nora Jones.

It was, um, especially dance me to the end of love by, uh, Madeline Barrow. Um, and there was some, um, Greek music cuz an Arabic music for the sexy middle part, cuz all you want is instrumental of like you rhythm

Chesney: and

Sephe: yeah, yeah. Rhythm, you know that kinda like, yeah,

Lynn: I have never you'll do that again. Do it

Chesney: again, Neil that

Neil: with clothes on as well.

Chesney: Can we talk about touch because, um, one of the things that I really remember from, from your book was a moment and correct me if I get this wrong, but you had a client. that was kind of mean, and, uh, wasn't uh, you know, would you didn't wanna be there? Um, yeah. And you managed to turn him around and it was a moment where you gave him a massage on, on his back.

And, and if I remember it was a moment that you realized that you had something more than just touching that there was something else that, you know, you had a, some kind of gift that kind of did something else. It was an energy, I guess it's an energy. Um, right. So, I mean, yeah, you didn't really talk much more about that in that, in the book.

And that was something that really interested me. I was like, well, I, I wonder if that's something that, that she's taken on, you know, the rest of her life, uh, and utilized in other ways, not, you know, not just in, in what you do for a living, but that, you know, that feeling that energy in touch,

Sephe: I've never used it in terms of, um, uh, they call it Reiki or so, you know, but I, in that scene, I realized that my imagination.

Shifting energy, uh, actually made a difference. I saw it happen on him and, and I realized that that was there. And I then, um, thought that that must be true with all the rest of our energy. So I used it throughout my escorting years, but , but I think that's Le (?) was talking about in the first place, in terms of being, I realized, um, I'm empathic, is that what they call it?

Where you take on other people's stuff? I thought there was something wrong with me. Why am I so sensitive? Why can't I read the newspaper? Why do I melt down? You know, so I think it helped me to be that way as an escort in terms of having people mean something to me and me, there was an exchange of energy that I don't think guys could find normally like, but particularly, I don't know.

Um, And that particular guy. I, I saw him for years after that and oh wow. He changed quite a bit. When I met him, he was a hoarder,

Chesney: yeah. A dramatic change

Neil: from thinking it was that moment you were describing, you said these wonderful words, you said at that moment, you touched him. You said sometimes in our life, our heart has to expand.

One must choose expansion. I thought that was really powerful. The way you summed it up like that.

Sephe: Oh, thank you. No, in the other book I'm young and I don't know how to react to a situation where, uh, it's a non-consensual sexual situation and you could fight. And I thought, well, if I, if I fight, if I punch in his Adams Apple, he could die.

And then I thought, no, because then I would be a murderer. You see? So I can't, I can't live with that. And so the only thing to do is to melt backwards. Right. And to open yourself up. To the moment. It was just my specific situation. I'm not saying that this is for every person in the universe in a bad situation, but for me, that's what I chose.

Just, uh, kind of melting backwards, melting away. Like it's hard to hold onto melt, you know, it's hard to hurt melt.

Lynn: Yeah. There are people who cannot quite see past the idea of sex worker. They just can't. And for whatever reason, it fills them full of rage. And I I've watched you deal with that in really quite a beautiful way, which is you do that melt too, which is you allow them to have their space.

And let, whatever rage comes out, it's fascinating.

Which is that I'm gonna ask you to tell me a story. I'm gonna do my timer, and then I'm gonna tell you what I hear and you get to tell me whether it's right or not. Right. Okay. Right. Two minutes. My love. Tell me about diamonds. Diamonds. Yeah. Diamonds, ready go.

Sephe: I had one once. Um, a man actually asked me to marry him. It was a client first and he thought I was somehow adorable and we didn't really know each other very long. He asked me to marry him and he put the ring in a champagne glass and we were on our way to go see my cousin's wedding. Um, I was taking him with me and I nearly chipped my tooth on the diamond, but I put it on it.

It was way too big. So it was spinning around and round, but I was so pleased and I thought, well, my mother will be so happy. I'm finally getting married because I thought, why not? You know, last chance Texaco and all. And, um, so , and so we went to the wedding and I went like this with my hand, I flung it forward and the ring went falling off my finger.

And so the whole wedding party at some point was searching on the floor and he was searching and my mother was crying and she's like, uh, you know, you can still marry her. I'm she's like, she's trying to give me away. Like she can't get rid of me. And, um, And finally, we could not find it. The wedding went on and he's sitting on the side of the road with a cigarette, you know, and fig you know, thinking you don't love me.

That's why you did this. I'm like, I didn't purposely. Okay. But, so I went off to the women's bathroom. He went off to the man's and that was going to be it. We lost this beautiful diamond ring. And then as the wedding was closing, we. Here from our separate bathrooms, this noise, that sounds like Frankenstein's crowd, you know, with pitch forks and lanterns and, you know, ha ha ha.

And you don't know what they're saying, but they're coming closer. And so we both come out, we look at each other and it's my Uncle Roy leading the charge of an entire family wedding with swinging something in the air saying we found the ring, we found the ring, it was in grandma Violet's butt . And so the diamond ring was in grandma Violet's butt.

And he didn't wanna marry me because of that. He thought it was a bad omen, which was fine, probably it was, but, so here's what happened. It bounced down on whatever and bounced up into her, her chair, I guess. And she was the only person like sitting there, uh, and you know, just still sitting and I guess because of old people, suction, you know, just kind sucked right up her back and then she stood up and he went to pull his mother's dress out.

Little crack and he pulled and it wouldn't come and he had to yank it and the ring came out, hit him in the face and that's where it was. So that's my final story.

Lynn: that is awesome. That's

an awesome story. A great story.

and you see what I mean about being a great writer? Do you see?

Chesney: Oh yeah, I could see the whole thing in front of me.

Yeah. You painted an amazing picture there

Lynn: so like diamonds, which is fascinating diamonds, um, signifies value usually represents value.

Sephe: mine is up someone's but

Lynn: your value is not money. It's not money. Right? So like the thing with diamonds is you, when you can ask people about diamonds and they'll go, oh, I really want diamonds, or I've got a diamond. And it's too small. I would like a bigger diamond or there are these places. There's the best diamond in the world.

Yours was like this thing of this guy that I didn't really value gave me something that I should value that I didn't really want. Uh, and I didn't know how to do it. And the, and the value that I found in this whole situation came from my family who accepted me with all of my imperfections, right. Value is in people, right.

That came your Uncle come and going, oh, it was Grandma Violet's butt right. That actually the, um, your value is not based on finance. It isn't like, you don't find riches in how much money you have. You have riches by community and inclusion and people. Right. And dog.

Sephe: sorry about that.

Lynn: That's all right. Is that, would you agree with that or not?

Sephe: I do agree with that actually. Very much. So that's so interesting. You do this when you do the writing exercises. I, I don't know if she do put you guys through this's

Neil: special power.

Sephe: Yeah. And it's magical. She'll say, tell me about your shoes and stills. Talk about shoes and then she'll say, well, that's means you are spiritually from another dimension. You're like, I am, I'm the dawning of the age of aquarium.

Neil: Yeah. We're not, we've been there.

Lynn: Yeah. Yeah. Like have listen to people, talk about stuff like that, or, you know, like rings or proposals or whatever. And they'll refuse to get married to somebody because they were. Even though the ring was beautiful.

They weren't asked in the right way. Whereas for you, you were like, it's the point of this thing? like, everything's going fine. He's given me this thing. It really doesn't fit me. I'm never gonna be good at being married. I don't know why he thinks this is going work out, but like, okay, it'll make my mother happy, but then actually it only just disrupts everybody else's wedding.

I'm really not fit out for being married.

Sephe: Absolutely right.

Lynn: Knowing that family. So, um, important to you, how do your family deal with what you do?

Do they know?

Sephe: Well, I did everything under a pen name because, you know, and I had to be secret for my whole life had to be a secret. Yeah. My whole life still is a secret, so it's, but I'm, but my father passed away two years ago, so I felt a little less of the need to mostly I was doing it to protect them because I didn't want them to feel that their daughter had to do something.

because they couldn't take care of me. It was a much different situation than that. There was no financial resources with them, but at the same time it was nothing they did. So I didn't wanna have them feel hurt. But I found out recently that my half, my family knows. And it's funny. And nobody said,

Chesney: And you didn't know that they knew

Sephe: no, but the, they were very passive aggressive in the way that they told me, you know?

And there wasn't a

sense, I guess, if, if they were to tell me, I would love for them to say, listen, I know, and I just want you to know that I love you and whatever you chose, and it looks like you made a good life. I would've loved that. That's not what was said. So I don't speak about it. I almost, no one in my family knows outright.

I haven't. they, they all think I'm sort of a failed massage therapist slash whatever, you know, , I'm the failed one. Yes. But, you know, I can't tell them they don't wanna, they don't want part of that journey. And I have other friends too, that I've lost along the way because of this business. So

Chesney: What, what happens when the, when the book is a number one bestseller and, uh,

Sephe: God, well then I'll just

Chesney: come out and all over the media.

Neil: Yeah.

Sephe: Then they'll want won't they, then they'll really,

Chesney: then they'll love me.

Sephe: They'll love me. Love me.

Lynn: Have you found another family within your industry then? Like, do you, did you like, cuz you said you have a secret life. This life is secret. Have you found cuz this is all about family and inclusion in groups, you have no interest really in being on your own, no matter how wealthy that would make you. Do you have another family that you created with in this new life?

Sephe: Yeah. I found that as things happened, you know, a couple, but in 2003, I met a, uh, a woman who was gonna help me build a house because I'd saved up to retire. So I saved up all this money and she stole every dime I ever made in my whole life. And so I was back to broke. Um, and so a million men later built my empire one penis at a time.

So , um, but I found that the people who were not apathetic, a lot of people didn't know how to handle such a loss. So they just kind of didn't, they just didn't talk to me for a while. But the people who came through for me in terms of friendship or love or family were actually my clients, uh, which I did not expect.

So men that I was just, they were, my clients became, uh, really, really good friends. Um, they're still my friends to this day. So they're the ones that are always there. They remember my birthday, my daughter's birthday, you know, they're there. If like when my book came out, all my clients were on board. I sent out like a little email to friends and mostly very few answered.

Um, but the ones who did were all my clients, and I thought that was amazing. You know, that, uh, oh, when that woman took everything that I had, I thought, well, I have nothing left. It took me years to build this up. I can't, you know, anybody who loses their entire life savings is, is devastated. No matter how you did it, but I thought so I've just spent 20 years working and I have nothing to show.

And so there was a lot of going through, what do I have to show? And it's what you said, Lynn it's I have people, I have the experiences and because I was present really present for them and they were real relationships. Even though there was a transaction. Um, I had all that and I left that situation, eventually healing with, excuse me, with those people becoming my dear friends.

So my clients are now my dear friends. And so they're my family. I think.

Chesney: We have our wonderful guests. That's you? Yay. Give us, uh, a song that means something to them. Happy or sad, uh, that you have an emotional connection to. And I, uh, recreate that song, uh, do my own version as a gift to you here in my studio. So,

Sephe: oh my god. That's wonderful.

Chesney: Yeah. So tell us the song that, uh, that you chose.

Sephe: I think I chose Perhaps Love by John Denver. Is that right?

Chesney: That was the one. Yeah. We'd like to play this for you. And then maybe we can talk about it afterwards if that's,

Sephe: I would love that. Okay. With you. Well, that's wonderful.

Neil: Just for you, Sephe Haven here is Chesney Hawkes version of. Perhaps love,

Chesney: Perhaps Love

is like a resting place, a shelter from the storm. It exists to give you comfort.

It's there to keep you

warm. And in those times of

trouble, when you are most alone,

the memory of love will bring you home. Perhaps love is like a window, perhaps an open door.

It invites you to come closer. It wants

to

show you more. And even if you lose yourself and don't know what to do, the memory of love will see you through. Oh, love to some is like a cloud to some, a strongest Steve, for

some

way of living for some way to feel and some say. Of is holding on and some say, letting go, and some say, love is everything.

And some say, they don't know.

Perhaps love is like the ocean full of conflict, full of pain,

like a fire when it's cold, outside or thunder. When it

rains, if I should live forever, all my dreams come true. My memories of love will

some say, love is holding on some, say, letting go. Some say love is everything. Some say they don't know. Perhaps love is like the ocean full of conflict, full of change, like a fire when

it's cold, outside or thunder. When it rains, if I should live for all and

all my dreams come true. My memories of love will be of you

Neil: just for you Sephe Haven. Chesney Hawkes performing, Perhaps Love Well done Ches!

Sephe: Chesney.

So beautiful. Chesney you're so talented. Wow. That's you're making me I'm so I'm clumped.

Lynn: oh,

Chesney: that's a great word.

Neil: I'm sorry. Tell us why that song then Sephe share with us what special place that holds for you then?

Sephe: God, I think just the way, I mean, and hearing you do it, Chesney really brought it home even more than.

When I normally heard it, um, because I think that's what, uh, what we were just talking about. What's left over when everything goes, um, it's what you bring into the room with you in any situation. It's what you bring to work with you it's um, and it's a big question, you know, what is love and, and what is the different kinds of love and, um, yeah, you made me cry.

I can't, I can't think and talk

Neil: like that.

Sephe: That's really beautiful.

Chesney: It's a very sweet, um, an innocent, um, beautiful song. That one, uh, I, I feel like that he kind of, he nailed that, that line. Is it, it kind of like, all it needed is that my memories of love will be of you, cuz it looks back to that. You know, whatever relationship they had at that, at that point.

Um, and obviously right then and there, he loved her. Um, and I think once you love someone, I think you always love them. No matter what happens. It's, you know, that feeling is always gonna be there somewhere. And, uh, I've always loved John Denver. So I, I was really happy. You chose but funny enough, I hadn't heard that song.

Oh, before.

Sephe: Wow. Yeah. It's yeah. Yeah. It's a beautiful song. So I'm writing a, the next book that I'm writing is about this. And, um, I thought I might name the book Perhaps Love because it's a three parts about. Needs and love and different. The book starts out with a client wanting me to say, I love you.

That's what he wants. And I's the one thing I can't, it's the one thing I can't give. And it's a real sticking point. And I don't know why, because what does it matter? Right. But it does matter. Yeah. Um, it's the one thing that does matter. And so, uh, that starts out the book. And so that's why I think, and I also, in that song, you, you say the memories of you, you know, um, I also think the, you is universal.

Obviously the me, the memories of love will see me through also. Um, so so yeah. And of course he's so beautiful. John Denver, the way. Taps into the heart.

Chesney: Yeah. He has emotional connection for sure.

Neil: On the subject of music. Sephe, there's a wonderful line in your book. You talk about you being Jewish and your childhood friend was Catholic and there's a great line in the book.

It says her God has better songs than us.

Sephe: That's true. They had this great album,

Chesney: certainly more musical theater.

Sephe: yeah. Well, it was sounds you could dance to, you know, it was like they had this song Catholic song up Up With People. I don't know if you fear Catholic, but, um,

Neil: but I don't know. No,

Sephe: it was like this whole album of like these, you know, I dunno what there was nuns singing, but you know they're but with people you'll meet em, wherever you'll go.

And we were like jumping on the bed and it was like the best music and ours was like Barta, everybody chance. Sing and, you know, they're just wailing. ,

Neil: it's very refreshing for someone who is a Catholic and has serious issues with religion, especially the Catholic religion. I think that's the first time in my life.

I've heard someone go, I prefer your religion to mine.

Lynn: we have to come towards the end of the show. But the, one of the questions that we we tend to ask is, um, knowing what you know now, right about, uh, the journey that you've been on, what advice would you give to the younger you? Or what advice would you give to anybody? Who's who's just about to step into your industry

Sephe: in my business.

Yeah. Mm-hmm

uh, um, just. to stay open, to not be hard. Um, otherwise things will hurt, um, and to, um, to find the love in men. So that, that remains a beautiful thing in your life and you don't get hard to it. Um, and to be successful, you have to be dependable. you have to answer your phone. mm-hmm you don't ghost people.

Mm-hmm and, uh, and I think, um, yeah, I think it's more about, uh, my business is about love and compassion and not as much about sex, but it's helps to be good at blow jobs. It really does. Watch snails, snail porno is like amazing. If you watch snails, snail, you'll porno, do. I guess

Chesney: there's something for everyone.

Sephe: that's right.

Neil: Aw, Sephe thank you for taking the time out to join this day. It's

Sephe: thank you all for having me.

I fell really special.

Lynn: Oh, you are special, love, you are. We love you. It's

Sephe: it's great to see you and great to meet you. And I'm glad you're angelic today in Neil to see your, your song was beautiful.

Ah,

Neil: yeah. Lovely. Well, look, thank you very much for your time. Sephe Haven on our podcast, everyone. Thank you.

There we go team Sephe Haven. That was fascinating. Wasn't it? What a lovely, lovely woman. Yeah. She's

Chesney: very serene and beautiful. Isn't she she's really

Neil: lovely. I mean, obviously the clue is in the quote that she chose, isn't it with the, with the be kind yeah. Thing. And then when, when you read the book and you, and you find out the sort of person that she is and just what she said, um, she is a natural empath and a naturally kind and gentle person that will look for the good in everyone.

Yeah.

Chesney: And in every situation, I think it's

Lynn: fascinating with her. Like the reason I suggest her as well is because I think that, um, her profession is definitely something that divides people

Chesney: Of course.

Lynn: Yeah. Um, and, uh so in fact, even just in a work base for me, you know, like people who had a problem that I might also be working with somebody who was a sex worker. We're no longer suitable as clients. Well, ah, mm-hmm, what I'd say about it is, is that I do believe in the integrity of knowing people, right? Which is that if people are your tribe, then let them be your tribe. If they're not, they're not, I don't actually, uh, categorize my friends and what they do.

Chesney: No, I agree with that. You gather your friends how nice they are and how lovely they are and how, you know, how they love you. And as simple as that really isn't it. Yeah. And

Lynn: accepting. And I think the thing I find fascinating about her is that she is like, she didn't talk about it today, but she has some really not awful stories, but stories where, I mean, losing all your money's a fairly terrible one.

Chesney: Mm yeah.

Lynn: But also being in situations of real threat and yet still in the end, she's come out like. You know, I'm gonna let go. I'm gonna just melt into this. Yeah. I'm not gonna let it go for me.

Chesney: Totally. There was a story that we didn't touch upon that I, I didn't know where to bring up where, where she lost a friend, um, that she worked with and this friend outed her as a sex worker in front of all of her friends and colleagues in a meeting with all everybody there.

Uh, and it was brutal, absolutely brutal. Um, and I, you know, how you get over that? I don't know, but she, she managed to do it with grace and. You know, and some people followed with her, came with her and some people didn't. Yeah. But it's testament to her is a kind soul that she is that she, that she's come through all of those situations.

Lynn: And I also think it opens up something about shame. Mm-hmm I think it's a really interesting, uh, concept on what is shame like cuz when you say that about her friend did that to her evidently to, uh, to have shame you know, give her shame. Like if you ask her why she's not saying about it, it's not really cuz she's ashamed of what she's done.

She's doing, she didn't, she's not no, but she recognizes how damaging it could be for other people. So she doesn't talk about it and it really is that kind of thing.

Chesney: She cares about what other people think

Lynn: she cares about what her family think. Yeah. She has a daughter and she does come from a loving family.

Isn't Starsky and Hutch where they threw her out in the streets and she had to, you know, talk. Right. Um, so she is being very mindful of other people and, and she's. As you, you know, she gets graphic about stuff. She's not ashamed of what she does. Mm. But she would be as ashamed to hurt people. And I think it is an interesting concept, you know, I certainly know people who would not, eh, not see her as their flavor,

What

Chesney: because of what she does, you mean?

Lynn: Yeah. Because they have an attitude about what sex working is.

Neil: Yeah. You mentioned it at the beginning, she has a natural concern about how other people feel about accepting her. Yeah. So she sort of wants to get it out in the open and clear it almost clear the air before any sort of conversation or any encounter takes place.

Cuz she accepts that some people might not want to accept her and she's happy that that's their opinion and she's quite happy to just step away. Isn't she really,

Lynn: she relaxes into it. It's an interesting thing. Do you know what, uh, listener, listener, I, this is one of those things that I would really like to know your opinion.

And so, uh, messages on the socials we'd really like to hear from you and what your thoughts. I think that's fair. Right? Absolutely. Anything else you'd like to add? Gentlemen, Neil, I have never seen you glisten quite so much. It was hilarious.

you were like, I love her. I love her.

Neil: Yeah. It's that gentleness.

And, and like I say, so I had a bit of back and forth over the email in setting this up and, um, just straight away to, for her to come out with that quote. And then obviously in reading, I'm up to about 30 pages of the book. I know she's been through ahead of a lot and she's an extremely kind gentle, loving person.

So yeah, I was, um, yeah. Was quite strong. Well, lovely, lovely person

Chesney: for sure. Thanks for bringing her along Lynn.. Yeah, thanks. We're also going to adopt her as our friend as well. So there we go.

Lynn: Yeah, no, see that's what's happening.

Chesney: Yeah. You're, we're gathering friends, everyone's gathering friends

Neil: for dinner party we would like to be present at, and that we hope, you know, there can be no ups or outbursts or story. We, we want it to be so bland that no one ever tells a story about that dinner party. Okay. there's, there's no stories to tell.

Lynn: I tell you what I do want is I do, I would like to, in my lifetime, be at a wedding party where the diamonds ring is found up Grandma Violet's butt!

Chesney: I think that is a great story, so,

Neil: well, right.

Just before we go, we should say, uh, check out Sephe online and her website, S E P H E. H a V E N Sephe haven.com.

Lynn: Also her books are available in Amazon.

Neil: They are. Yes, absolutely. My Horizontal Life.

Lynn: All righty.

Neil: So, so there you go.

Lynn: Until next time I have been Ferguson,

Neil: I've been Harrington

Chesney: and I have been Hawkes.

Neil: See you next time. See you. Next time.

You've been listening to Ferguson Harrington Hawkes with Lynn Ferguson, Neil Harrington and Chesney Hawkes written produced for source productions by surprise, surprise Lynn Ferguson, Neil Harrington, and Chesney Hawkes.

Ferguson Harrington Hawkes Podcast

Sephe Haven - Videos and Transcript